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January 24, 2005

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» How Can You Be a Minister and Support War? Even Wear a Uniform? from The Great Separation
Be sure to check out Jon's post at how a Christian chaplain answers the question of being in favor of war. [Read More]

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01.25.05
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Illinois’ Peculiar New Law -- There are thirteen states in the U.S. that have signed laws prohibits discrimination based on sexual orientation in such areas as employment, housing, and public accommodations. But, as Josh Claybourn reports, the new bill... [Read More]

» Talking about a Just War from SteelerDirtFreak :: A 21st Century Missional Redneck Geek
Interesting that just last night Byron, Steve, and I were riding to an indoor soccer match (they were playing, I was watching) and on the ride down, we started talking about 'Just War' and how Christians react to such. I get some of it, but truthfully,... [Read More]

» A Just War? from The Greatest Pursuits

One of the most divisive issues in politics today is the question of whether or not we were justified in going to war against Iraq. Opinions on the subject range from “we should go to war anytime another country even looks at us crosseyed” to ��... [Read More]

» KOTB Week 5 Tournament from King of the Blogs
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» 1st Annual Evangelical Blog Awards And Other Announcements from La Shawn Barber's Corner
Evangelical Underground just came up with a great idea: Evangelical Blog Awards. Go vote for your favorites! Other announcements: Please visit and support a new blog on the block, Young Americans For Social Security Reform. The Carnival of the Va... [Read More]

» Outtakes
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Meet Your Neighbors -- Even though blogosphere is a huge place, it still surprises me when I find a blog that travels in the same circles that I do and yet have never met. That’s the case with Bob Spencer... [Read More]

» Outtakes
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from the evangelical outpost
GodBlog Book -- Andrew Jackson of SmartChristian and I are in the process of collaborating on a book, tentatively titled: GOD BLOGS: The Emergence and Future of the Christian Blogosphere. The purpose of the book is to attempt to capture... [Read More]

» KING OF THE BLOGS: JUDGMENT DAY 5 from Bad Example
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» King of the Blogs Tournament: Week 5 Judging from News from the Great Beyond
It's that time again! [Read More]

» KOTB Week 5 Ruling from King of the Blogs
Neva Post: Neva introduces many of us to reading. While some of us may be loathe to undertake this academic pursuit, others, including myself, need a good book with which to settle down at the end of the day. At... [Read More]

» Outtakes
01.28.05
from the evangelical outpost
GodBlog Book -- Andrew Jackson of SmartChristian and I are in the process of collaborating on a book, tentatively titled: GOD BLOGS: The Emergence and Future of the Christian Blogosphere. The purpose of the book is to attempt to capture... [Read More]

» Question for Jon Trainer from Ryan's Blog
I was reading a blog by Jon Trainer that describes the conditions for a just war theory. I was wondering if, based on those conditions, he viewed the Iraq war as a just war? Why? or Why not? [Read More]

Comments

Matt

That is quite the checkout line conversation!! Do the people behind you every get angry?

jon

Well, they usually stay with me until I start in on the bibliography. Seriously, I am amazed at how little thought people have really given to issues like this. We have a tendency to make decisions at an emotional or political level, and just assume that politicians or those in the profession of arms do the same. There is a foundation of western philosophical thought that our culture is built upon. Unfortunately, few people know, or care to know, about it.

Joel

CS Lewis has a good little piece called Why I Am Not a Pacifist. It is in The Weight of Glory. He's always thoughtful.

Phil

An excellent short summary on JWT. Before the current work in Iraq, our church studied this on Wednesday nights for several weeks. I have since moved to another city and some of the details were slipping from my mind. Thanks for reminding me.

Dawn

Excellent post, though I'll have to respectfully disagree with your conclusion. The US's sovereign authority in Iraq is questionable, and even if we had just cause to be in Iraq, we haven't handled the aftermath very well. From what I can see, we haven't done a good job of bringing peace and incidents like Abu Garib, Guantanamo Bay, and the other 12 soldiers convicted of inproper treatment of prisoners undermine our stated purpose of freedom and respect for the Iraqi people.

Scott M

The difficulty I have is in applying these principles retroactively to past wars that we typically consider to be just wars. Many of the military conflicts in the Old Testament seem at face value to be nothing less than aggression (howbeit God-ordered aggression). I'm thinking specifically of the Israelite's siege of the promised land. You could argue that they were just reclaiming the land that was originally promised them. But would you use that same logic if Native American tribes banded together and waged a revolution against the U.S. government for illegally seizing their homeland hundreds of years ago?

A more modern example also comes to mind. The decision to use nuclear weapons against Japan in WWII seems to have broken the proportionate means and noncombatant immunity rules. However, I have heard many historians justify Truman's decision based on the fact that it brought a swift end to the war and protected America and its allies from further losses. I agree that "just nuke 'em" isn't the right call. But I wonder if we are overly cautious when it comes to collateral damage in modern warfare. It seems we let the anti-war lobby and mainstream media rule our military policy. Can you imagine any US president in this day and age daring to use nuclear weapons (even tactical nukes) against an enemy that is armed only with conventional weapons? It would never happen... even if that were the most effective option.

jon

Dawn--I deeply regret the atrocities committed by our troops at A. G. and other places, but the exception proves the rule. While most of the media focuses on a handful of misfits, tens of thousand of US soldiers do their jobs honorably every day. They do so because the vast majority of them have a moral foundation upon which to work. Do not buy the media spin on this war.

Thomas Sowell had an excellent article on this topic today in the Baltimore Sun. I'll quote it here in full:

THERE ARE still people in the mainstream media who profess bewilderment that they are accused of being biased. But you need to look no further than reporting on the war in Iraq to see the bias staring you in the face, day after day, on the front page of The New York Times and in much of the rest of the media.

If a battle ends with Americans killing a hundred guerrillas and terrorists, while sustaining 10 fatalities, that is an American victory. But not in the mainstream media. The headline is more likely to read: "Ten More Americans Killed in Iraq."

This kind of journalism can turn victory into defeat. Kept up long enough, it can even end up with real defeat, when support for the war collapses at home and abroad.

One of the biggest American victories during World War II was called "the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot" because American fighter pilots shot down more than 340 Japanese planes over the Mariana Islands while losing just 30 American planes. But what if our current reporting practices had been used back then? The story, as printed and broadcast, could have been: "Today, 18 American pilots were killed and five more severely wounded as the Japanese blasted more than two dozen American planes out of the sky." A steady diet of that kind of one-sided reporting and our whole war effort against Japan might have collapsed.

Whether the one-sided reporting of the war in Vietnam was a factor in the American defeat there used to be a matter of controversy. But in recent years, high officials of the Communist government of Vietnam have admitted that they lost the war on the battlefields but won it in the U.S. media and on the streets of America, where political pressures from the anti-war movement threw away the victory for which thousands of American lives had been sacrificed.

Too many in the media today regard the reporting of the Vietnam War as one of their greatest triumphs. It certainly showed the power of the media - but also its irresponsibility. Some in the media today seem determined to recapture those glory days by the way they report on events in the Iraq war.

First, there is the mainstream media's almost exclusive focus on American casualties in Iraq, with little or no attention to the often much larger casualties inflicted on the enemy. Since terrorists are pouring into Iraq in response to calls from international terrorist networks, the number of those killed is especially important, for these are people who will no longer be around to launch more attacks on American soil.

With all the turmoil and bloodshed in Iraq, military and civilian people returning from that country are increasingly expressing amazement at the difference between what they have seen and the one-sided picture that the media present to the public here.

Our media cannot even call terrorists "terrorists," but instead give these cutthroats the bland name "insurgents." You might think that these were like the Underground fighters in Nazi-occupied Europe during World War II.

Real insurgents want to get the occupying power out of their country. But the fastest way to get Americans out of Iraq would be to do the opposite of what these "insurgents" are doing. Just by letting peace and order return, those who want to see American troops gone would speed their departure.

But the real goal of the guerrillas and terrorists is to prevent democracy from arising in the Middle East.

Still, much of the Western media even cannot call a spade a spade. The Fourth Estate sometimes seems more like a Fifth Column.

jon

Scott--Israel was a tool of God's judgement on the idolatrous nations inhabiting Palestine prior to their arrival. The wickedness of the land was so great that God ordained the death of every living man, woman, child, and beast. We don't like to think of God in those terms.

WW2--It's my understanding that you are correct about the decision to use the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki--the cost of invading Japan was deemed far greater.

Precision guided munitions--the care and expense that the US military takes to put "bombs on target" is incalculable. Often at the risk of our men and women in uniform. The way we have waged war over the last couple of decades is a tribute to morality in warfare. The very fact that such a reading list as the one I posted above is found on a US military website is commendable to our military.

I realize my bias in this post (I realize we make mistakes, have errors in judgement, and are sometimes dead wrong), but I am convinced no nation on earth has done more to wage warfare in a moral way than America.

Dawn

Jon, I agree with you about the reporting on Iraq, primarily as far as the fatalities are concerned--we have lost surprisingly few in the war, and for the media to ring out weekly death tolls in the tens or less seems ridiculous. This should be a trimuph, as relatively few lives have been lost.

However, high-profile incidents like AG have cost a great deal in terms of public support and international respect; they may be somewhat isolated, but when combined they show a flaw in the way our military works. It may be small numerically--and I do believe that the vast majority of our soldiers are honorable and I respect their sacrifice--but the incidents themselves and Bush's statement to the effect of "according to the Constitution I have the legal authority to suspend Geneva, although I choose not to exercise that authority at this time" reveal that something is wrong in the system. And that does worry me, especially when we are supposedly the bringers of peace and ethical warfare. When it comes down to it though, it's our politicians who have been making dubious decisions and our military that pays the price.

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